About Preaching and Preachers
You may or may not have any input regarding the following discussion but as always I find your thoughts on certain matters valuable to my own decision process. We have been having a discussion of the Pastor John Hagee, and his talks and beliefs regarding the Jews have "continuing favor with God by the election of grace", if you know more about his teachings please elaborate. While I understand and believe personally that we are currently living during the time of the Gentile, but there will come a time when God will turn back to the Jewish nation, and I do believe require all to come to the understanding that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and the only way unto to heaven is through and by him. That they as a people will have to accept Jesus in order to go to heaven. Hence the current discussion between brothers as to Pastor Hagee and what seems to be an disagreement on the current status of the Jewish faith, and salvation in Christ.
I read your reply to the question of changing the TRADITIONAL Sunday night service and was a little surprised at your answer. i have been full time staff for 16 years of 3 SBC traditional churches and find that many churches today do not offer relevant teaching for the people and most styles of worship and teaching have become "boring" and "TRADITIONAL" i find it so legalistic (which has become so typical of many christians, Pharisee's of the church) of you to say that the churches that are meeting in home groups or cell groups are People that are moving away from studying the Bible, to studying books and programs of various "authorities" dealing with human emotion and problems. The last time i checked Paul said he would become all things, to all people, to reach some and the scriptures also clearly teaches of churches that met in homes! I know i will not change your mind but would like for you to tell me when did churches start meeting on sunday nights and wed. nights, and where in the bible does it teach us that we must meet during these time.(sis)
So....you think that it is a good idea to move Bible study and the fellowship of believers from the local church into homes and away from the church for whom Jesus says in Eph. 5:25 He gave His life for..... I know that a building is not a biblical church...but it is place were the members of the church can come and meet and the building is the center place of that meeting. And you think that less services are better.....and that is the action of an enlightened modern Christian church to do away with their evening and Wednesday night services. Yes, I understand you fully, because I know that is the natural course of worldly thinking.
Why.....it gives families much more time to watch the TV. I see what you mean too....it is too much to think that believers who Jesus Christ suffered and died for should assemble together in their local church to pray and worship the Lord on Sunday night. It is much better for ourselves and children to watch the sports on TV and the exciting action movies....
I was raised as a SB and I will be eternally grateful for the sound Bible teaching and example that I receive as a boy and a young Christian. Yes, I think I know a great deal about the SBC and its past.... I had a godly pastor and wonderful SBC church who had SS, a morning service, and YES...Training Union in the hour before the evening service.
By the way I know you never heard of Training Union. Let me explain that it is not working out in the church gym or praying basket ball on Sunday evenings in the "Family Center." Ask some of the really old people in your church...they will remember it and explain to you what it was. We Baptist believers would actually assembly at the church and for one whole hour before the evening service and study God's word and train believers in how to study and present the word of God to others. I suppose we were a little fanatical to actually give that much time to the Lord and the study of the Bible. We did not need a gym at church to get us to attend. And after Training Union, yes what...we had an old fashioned preaching service. Yep....two in one day! We loved our church.....do you love your gym?
You seem to be blaming the apathy found in so many churches on the order of the church and its meetings. I wonder if you have really thought that through. Do you hold that it is better and less boring to do away with our services?
The question is this....Why is a lot of Bible teaching received or condemned as being boring and not relevant.... You with your modern enlightened way of thinking blame it on the church..... You know...we were doing okay to you modern folks began to change everything. I know it is really far fetched, but you suppose it might be because of worldly minded church members who are bored with God's word and as Paul said ". . .after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth." Do you think that doing away with services is the way to solve that supposed problem. I know....the modern church member has a different and more posh palette than their predecessors have in centuries past. They need power point presentations and stylish media in their services and little non offensive sermonettes that are always positive and never address sin.
Yes, and when I was a boy we also had a Wednesday night prayer meeting where these wonderful godly ole timey boring believers got together to pray for their church, its pastors and the lost in their community. We never dreamed that it was really boring or that being traditional was out of vogue. We thought it but a way to follow God's instructions in Hebrews 10:25 which says the local congregation is not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. I really glad you modern folks were not around then.....you would have spoiled it for us, by telling us what a waste of time it was.....and boring too. I suppose our ignorance was bliss.... Surely, we wouldn't have wanted to be bored....of all things! Wow, you could have helped us to become spiritual like you are by doing away with our boring services. Oh, yes, we dressed up to come to church and we did not need coffee and donuts to munch on in the service to add to our "experience." My family did not had a lot of money so we worn hand me down clothes, but I can hear my godly mother saying, "It may not be new, but it is clean and we wear the best we have to honor the Lord in Church!" Can your believe that my dear old fogey mother thought we could honor the lord in how we dressed. See much have got that finatical idea from the Old Testament example of worship. Oh, by the way, I visited a SBC church where I grew up in and teh piano player was wearing short shorts. I sure she was real cool...in more ways that one. I guess she thinks the Lord is cool too.
Yet, you "modern" SB folks ( to be distinguished for the old timey SB folks who loved and served the Lord) ...please excuse my bluntness. . . are more enlighten today than we old traditional Southern Baptists were. You know so much better than us. Yet, I look at what your generation is producing and look at mine and I think I see some interesting differences.
We encouraged people to come to church for worship, pray and Bible study and did think it much to give the Lord one day of our lives out of seven. I think I even remember being taught that was in the Ten Commandments about keeping the Sabbath day holy. But you dear folks are more "in tuned" people and are so superior to us, because you purport that less church is better. . . You don't need all those boring services. Yep, that is a big difference.
You folks have brought modern music and entertainment into the pulpit and services....so folks can have a good time and surely you do. I have seen your services. You can pat your foot, swing your arms around in the air and really have a good time. I guess the word of God was too boring....so you jived it up with some fast contemporary music with a fast exciting beat.... That is surely something new. But you know, we old fogies were more concerned about worship.....true worship of God and honoring Him and would never have thought of bringing the world's music and "beat" into our services and offering that unto our Holy and Righteous God. It never occurred to us to make the pulpit a stage for entertainment,. We sort of thought it was a place where a godly pastor, lead of the Lord would preach God's word. We did not go to church to be entertained, but to worship the Lord and study and fellowship with God's people. We were surely naive to think that this was what God wanted and that we were uplifted by it. And we thought we were getting our "counseling" in our services and meetings.
We did not even know it was boring..... Oh, yes we had the old fashioned hymns too. . . I'm sure that tells you how misguided we were. We really sang hymns that were based on the Word of God, the scriptures.....imagine that. We actually sang scripture in service. Can you believe that they uplifted us and we thought we were honoring the Lord by singing songs based on His word. When you went by our church even if you did not know it was a church, the music would let you know in a second. We were so dumb...we did not know we could have done more for the Lord by having a real band, with drums and large amplifiers in our services. We did not know that God honoring music prepared the congregation for the message from God our pastor had prepared. We even thought that the preaching of God's word was God's way of winning the lost to Himself. I'm sure you folks have taught the Lord a real lesson about that.... Why now you modern guys win them with CCM.
We never dreamed it was better to sing one or two lined rote choruses . . . fashioned after popular secular worldly music. We enjoyed singing with only a piano and sometimes an organ. And we had people to sing solos and small groups....and did not have a microphone and a mixer system to "enhance" the singers voice. We never dreamed we need a music and PA system costing thousands of dollars! Our hearts were lifted up to the Lord... imagine that!
In our time they actually played hymns on the radio. You know I turned on a station on the radio the other day and thought it was a rock and roll group.... But before I could turn to another station I heard the "DJ?" saying this was the latest Christian group.....and you could buy their album for thirty bucks! They said they were worshiping the Lord and by buying their DVD you could experience a new dimenion of worshiping God?! I am glad the DJ told the folks in radio land it was Christian music. I guess I really am out dated because what I thought I heard was just rock and roll....with some "Christian" phrases. I think that is really strange....to think that rock and roll is Christian music. But I am sure these modern CCM groups give a lot of money to the churches...right and win thousands to the Lord. I just that means the Lord is going to have to rewrite the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19-20.
We kinda thought we were obeying God by "not being conformed to the world....but rather being transformed by the renewing of our minds"(Rom. 12:2)...in SS, Training Union, Prayer meeting, and two worship services on the Lord's day.
Oh, yes we had what we called cottage prayer meetings....I know that is a surprise to you......! We met in homes no less, but we never let them replace our assembling in our local church.
But, you modern folks are better and so much more informed that we were and condemning us as being legalistic..... You know I never heard that word . . . until you modern more spiritual Christians than we, began to use it. I'm still not sure what you mean by it...... What I think you call legalistic we simply called obeying God. Seems to me that living a godly life before the world honored the Lord...we did not have a clue it was "LEGALISTIC" AND WRONG!
And oh yes, what is your generation of enlighten, believers produced.....? A divorce rate in SBC churches that is the same as the secular world. Preachers in hundreds of SBC churches preaching devotionals instead of God's uncompromised word. Promoting every new supposed translation of the Bible as being better than our old KJV? We did not know all those verses we read were not a part of God's word....even if they are in the majority of the Greek texts. We were so backwards that we though we understood what "thee" and "thou" meant. We even got saved and born again....reading and hearing that old outdated KJB. Maybe we were not as educated as you are today.
And what about your modern SBC preachers. " I am referring to the modern products of your seminaries and not to the godly few pastors that still stand for God's word and will die and go to the Lord with a clear conscience of never having misled their congregations or compromised His word. Who strongly and with conviction preach "thus saith the Lord" and condemned sin just like Jesus did. How come hundreds of SBC pastors each year are bringing scandal and reproach upon the name of Christ by their sexual affairs with women in their churches.
And not just to blame them....why would any Christian woman and wife allow herself to be seduced by her PASTOR!..... Wow, maybe there was something for having the family in church all those boring times...even on Sunday night at Training Union and the preaching service... And yes, what a great thing you have done in emancipating the women folk and appointing them as women deacons and preachers.... That has really strengthen the families of your churches. You even know more than God does about how He instituted the local church and the order in a family by having women in authority over men and confusing the roles of the husband and wife in the family.
You are right....you don't need a Sunday night service anymore. What's the point in having two entertaining shows with the same theme on the same day and letting blind leaders lead the blind? People might really get bored with two such services (shows) a day.
I am astonished that you a "leader" in several SBC churches would write me and criticize me because I believe that God's people ought to get together as often as they can....yes even Sunday evening when all the ball games are on TV..... Where, Sir....is your biblical discernment. You know why you wrote me and rebuked me? You know deep down in your heart you are dead wrong.....and are seeking to justify your worldliness by criticizing me. Well, I will not let you get away with that...and I do not apologize for getting personal.....you need to get on your knees before God and repent for your sake and the sake of those people you "minister" too.
By the way let me be so bold as to says.....I absolutely reject and rebuke your modern worldliness and will till the Lord returns or takes me home. You knew that when you wrote and that is why you said you would not change my mind...... You knew by my stand for the Lord that I love Him, His word and His congregation and will never mislead them away with all this modern "junk" that is simply worldliness. And do not write me any more criticizing me for doing what is right and biblical..... And maybe word to the "wise". . . . I use the term loosely.....there will come a day when you will stand before the Lord and explain your modern enlighten leadership..... I will be there too....I wonder on whom He will smile.....
I think the Lord had you folks in mind when He inspired Paul to write: "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry" (2 Timothy 4:2-5).
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Roman 12:1-2).
By the way....do you know your church is addressed by the Lord Jesus Himself in Revelation 3:14-22?
Hagee said "Here is my position on the Jewish people... Fact One: God has not cast away the Jewish people. Fact Two: According to Romans 11:5 there are Jewish people ('a remnant') who have a spiritual relationship with God at this present time... according to 'the election of grace.'"( John Hagee personal letter to Erwin M. de Castro of the Christian Research Institute, October 18, 1994, pg. 3)
Hagee's first error is that election is not to salvation, but God's plan for believers. God elected the plan, not who He would save and who He would reject. That is the false teaching of Calvinism and is not biblical.
Second, Jews have to believe and by faith put their faith in Jesus Christ just like everyone who was ever saved, Old or New Testament. God says He will open the eyes of a "remnant" not all Jews.
Hagee is referring to Romans 11:5.... "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." (Romans 11:5) However, he failed to read verse 6 which says, "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6) Paul then goes on to state that Israel's failure was a blessing to the Gentiles. However, he also made it clear they were responsible for their sin of rejecting the Messiah. "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22)
It is a serious mistake to take one or two verses, ignore their context and make a false assumption. Hagee for all his charts and rhetoric shows himself not to be well versed in interpreting God's word.
This is the age of the Gentile which will end with the rapture and the seven year Tribulation will begin. The Tribulation is the last seven years of the 490 years of Daniel's prophecy of Chapter 9. It is actually the finishing of the Old Testament dispensation that God put on hold, when Israel reject Christ. During the Tribulation many Jews will be saved as their eyes are opened to the truth that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. They shall weep over their error and turn to the Lord. A 144,000 Jews will be saved as Revelation 7 states. However, they and all but a remnant of Jews will lose their lives by the hand of the Antichrist. Many Gentiles too will be saved and most will suffer the same faith.
This is only my personal opinion, but I think Hagee is not doing the research himself but has a staff that does it for him. He is about 85 percent accurate, but he occasionally makes mistakes like his stand on the Jews and believe in Calvinism which is a false view of election. If he were a true student of God's word he would know better.
Jesus was talking to a Jew, Nicodemus when He stated John 3:16. Jesus preached to the Jews repentance and believing God's promises for salvation. The promise was in the work of the Messiah as Isaiah 53 states. He presented Himself as the Messiah. A few Jews were saved in Jesus' ministry (120 at the Day of Pentecost) but most died in their sins. The message of John 3 is that Jesus said that Nicodemus' trust in his heritage and birth as a Jew would not save Him. He would not see the kingdom of heaven unless he was born again. The Lord has not changed His message and the Gospel is the same as Jesus and the New Testament presents it. Salvation is by faith as Ephesians 2:8-9 state. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Hagee is wrong and the New Testament plainly shows that. He is also wrong when he says the Jews are Christ killers. That is in a sense technically true because they turned Jesus over to the Romans to be crucified, but the Romans nor the Jews killed Christ. Jesus Christ allowed death to take Him and He "gave up the ghost." Making this statement shows Hagee deals with sensationalism and appeals to the crowd....but his theology is poor. However, these errors are only a few of the many other areas where he shows himself to be biblically unsound. Especially his promoting Benny Hinn, the PTL club the likes of these kind of false prophets are deceive millions for "filthy lucre" (money). A man who can put his arm around Benny Hinn and praise him and tell people to support Hinn's "wonderful work for Jesus" is a man who has sold his soul to money and has not respect for God or God's word.
Not sure I helped, but these are my thoughts some of Hagee's errors. God does not bless those who mix truth will error and use Him to make money.
Of course a pastor who has children would have some experience from that, but the Bible is very clear in teaching principles of raising children and that is what the pastor should teach. He can certainly do that without having children himself. He can teach his congregation and of course the parents will apply those principles in the raising of their children. So certainly having children or not having children is not something that would deter a man from being a pastor if God has called him.
I hope this is helpful. Did you read the article at http://bible-truth.org/1Timothy3-2.html.